A Conversation with Machiavelli · Pair 16 of 39
Editor's summary Machiavelli holds that Rome's trial of Horatius for killing his sister shows no ingratitude: a well-ordered republic never cancels demerits with merits, and the people deserves more blame for absolving him than for wishing to condemn him. Guicciardini says it can perhaps be said he was absolved less for his merits than so that killing a sister who lamented the city's deliverance should not seem an error; yet it seems the truth is that the killing was a crime, since, if she had done wrong, punishing her was for the magistrates, not private men, and that the memory of his merits caused it. In such a case, condemning him would have been more reprehensible than absolving him: not that offsetting crimes with merits should be a rule, which, as the Discourse says, would be pernicious, but where so many circumstances concur it is very fitting to depart from the rule.
Le Repubbliche bene ordinate constituiscono premj e pene a' loro cittadini, né compensano mai l'uno con l'altro.
Well-ordered republics constitute rewards and penalties for their citizens, nor do they ever compensate the one with the other.
Argument. The case, set out as a balance. Horatius' merits had been very great, for he had overcome the Curiatii; his fault had been atrocious, for he had killed his sister. The two facts stand in matching clauses, each with its gerund of cause. Nonetheless the homicide so displeased the Romans that they put him on trial for his life, though his merits were so great and so fresh. To a superficial reader this would seem popular ingratitude: Machiavelli states the appearance in order to overturn it.
History. The combat of the Horatii and Curiatii, which Machiavelli discussed in I.22 and I.23, ended with one Roman brother alive. Returning with the spoils, Publius Horatius met his sister, who was betrothed to one of the Curiatii, mourning her betrothed; he killed her. Livy has him condemned by the duumvirs for treason (perduellio), saved on appeal to the people by his father's pleas, and absolved more in admiration of his virtus than by the justice of the case (1.26). Machiavelli speaks only of the people's trial.
Argument. The reversal and its reason, in one period. Whoever examines the case better, and asks what the orders of republics must be, will blame the people rather for absolving Horatius than for wishing to condemn him. The reason follows at once (e la ragione è questa): no well-ordered republic ever cancelled demerits with merits. It orders rewards for good works and penalties for bad ones, and a citizen rewarded for working well who afterwards works ill is chastised without any regard to his good works. The two ledgers are kept apart; the same man takes each in full. The people's fault, on this reading, was to let the merit cancel the fault.
Cross-reference. Guicciardini takes up this sentence and turns it under a condition Guicciardini .01: in such a case the people would have been more reprehensible for condemning him than it was for absolving him.
Argument. Why the rule holds, and its corollary. Where these orders are observed a city lives free a long time; otherwise it soon falls to ruin. The cause is a consequence: if a citizen who has done some outstanding work for the city gains, beyond the reputation it brings, the audacity and confidence of being able to do ill without fearing penalty, he soon grows so insolent that all civility dissolves. The other side of the rule follows: if the penalty is to be feared for wicked works, the rewards must be kept for good ones, as Rome did. Even a poor republic, which can give little, must not abstain from that little, for a small gift given in recompense of a good, even a great one, will be esteemed honourable and very great by whoever receives it.
Argument. Proof by examples, first of reward, then of reward and penalty in one man. Horatius Cocles, who held the bridge until it could be cut, and Mucius Scaevola, who burned his hand before Porsena, were each given two staiora of land by the public: small gifts for outstanding works, as .03 prescribed. Manlius Capitolinus, who saved the Capitol from the Gauls, received from the besieged a small measure of meal, great by the fortune of the moment. When he afterwards stirred sedition, from envy or bad nature, he was thrown from the Capitol he had saved, without any respect to his merits. The last example is the chapter's rule in action: the merit was rewarded, the fault punished, and neither was set against the other.
History. Cocles (Livy 2.10) and Scaevola (Livy 2.12-13) belong to the war with Lars Porsena of Clusium after the expulsion of the kings; Livy gives Cocles as much land as he could plough round in a day, and Scaevola land across the Tiber. Manlius held the Capitol when the Gauls took Rome, on the traditional reckoning in 390 BC; the besieged gave him each a half-pound of spelt and a little wine (Livy 5.47). In 384 BC he was condemned for aiming at kingship and thrown from the Tarpeian rock, on the Capitoline; Livy observes that the same place was the monument of his glory and of his last penalty (6.20).
Cross-reference. Manlius is the calumniator of I.8, where Machiavelli tells how his envy of Camillus led him to say that the treasure gathered to pay the Gauls had been taken by private citizens. I.8 takes his story only as far as his imprisonment under the dictator; this chapter carries it to his death.
Established from the 1824 edition (WIT-NM-DISC-1824-IA), page-image-backed, which governs. Collated against the 1554 Giglio printing, Venice (WIT-NM-DISC-1554-IA), which is comparison evidence only.
Paragraph divisions are editorial. The witness prints the chapter as one unbroken block.
debbe di quel poco non astenersi — 1824. The 1554 witness reads debbe di di quel poco astenersi. Checked on the leaf (fol. 40r): the 1554 has no non and prints di twice, so that it says the opposite, "must abstain from that little". The 1824 non astenersi, "not abstain", is what the argument needs: rewards are to be kept even by a poor republic.
dato ad alcuno per ricompensa di bene, ancora che grande — 1824. The 1554 witness reads dato ad alcuno per ricompenso di bene, anchora che grande. Checked on the leaf. Ricompenso is the masculine form of the same noun; a word-level difference at a/o, letters the scans break, so escalated under D203(b) although both 1824 readers read ricompensa without doubt on the sampled page. It construes and stands, D38 (D248). Both witnesses print ancora che grande, "even though great", where the sense seems to want "even though small": not a variant, and noted in the translation.
come si vede che fece Roma — 1824. The 1554 witness reads come si uide che fece Roma. Checked on the leaf: the 1554 past si uide, "as was seen", for the 1824 present si vede, "as one sees".
biasimerà quel Popolo più tosto per averlo assoluto, che per averlo voluto condannare — 1824. The 1554 witness reads biasimerà quel popolo piu tosto per hauerlo assolto, che per hauerlo uoluto condennare. Spelling only (assolto, condennare); rests on the transcript.
È nota ancora l'Istoria di Manlio Capitolino ... mosso poi Manlio — 1824. The 1554 witness reads E nota anchora la historia di Mallio Capitolino ... mosso poi Mallio. Checked on the leaf: the 1554 Mallio for Manlio, as at NM I.11 (names.md).
Orthography, capitalization, word division and punctuation follow the governing witness throughout; no reading is hybridized between witnesses.
i meriti di Orazio. "The merits of Horatius": Publius Horatius, the surviving Roman champion of the combat Machiavelli discussed in I.22 and I.23 (Livy 1.24-26). Returning in triumph, he killed his sister, who was mourning one of the Curiatii, her betrothed. Livy tells that he was condemned by the duumvirs, appealed to the people, and, after his father's pleas, was absolved more in admiration of his virtus than by the justice of the case (1.26).
avendo con la sua virtù vinti i Curiazj. "He having with his virtù overcome the Curiatii": virtù in Italian (D16). The two gerunds, avendo ... vinti and avendo morto, are kept parallel: the merit and the fault in the same form.
il fallo suo atroce. "His fault ... atrocious": fallo, fault; Guicciardini's reply has the verb, of the sister, under a condition: se lei aveva fallato.
avendo morto la sorella. "He having slain his sister": morto transitive, slain, kept apart from ammazzare, kill (D262). The possessive "his" for the article is English idiom, not a supply.
omicidio. "Homicide", as D169. Guicciardini uses the same word twice.
lo condussero a disputare della vita. "They brought him to dispute for his life": he was put on trial for it. Condurre, bring or lead.
ingratitudine popolare. "Popular ingratitude": the ingratitude of a people. Machiavelli treats it at length in I.28-30; the phrase anticipates that discussion.
Nondimeno ... Nondimeno. "Nonetheless" twice in five lines (.01, .02), as the glossary: the first turns from the merits to the trial, the second from appearance to examination. The English repeats.
gli ordini delle Repubbliche. "The orders of republics": ordine, order (glossary), and ordinata, ordinati in the same period: the well-ordered republic has "ordered" rewards and penalties.
più tosto per averlo assoluto, che per averlo voluto condannare. "Rather for having absolved him than for having wished to condemn him": the chapter's reversal. The people's fault, if any, was to let the merit cancel the fault.
non mai cancellò i demeriti con li meriti. "Ever cancelled the demerits with the merits": the double negative nessuna ... non mai is Italian idiom and reads as one negative in English.
opera, operato, opera, opere. "Work", "worked", "works": operare, work (D83), so that "having worked well" and "a good work" stay in one root, as in the Italian.
lo gastiga. "It chastises him": the 1554 edition's castiga is the same verb.
rovinerà presto. "It will fall to ruin soon": rovinare intransitive; rovina, ruin (glossary). molto tempo, "much time", in the sentence before, kept apart from lungo tempo, "a long time" (D262). The 1554 edition reads tosto, the same.
egregia opera, opere tanto egregie. "Outstanding work", "works so outstanding": English "egregious" now means the opposite.
audacia e confidenza. "Audacity and confidence": confidence in the older sense of assurance, here presumption.
si risolverà ogni civiltà. "All civility will dissolve": civiltà, civility, civil life under laws (glossary, I.2); risolvere, dissolve.
osservare i premj. "To observe the rewards": to keep them, as orders are "observed" in the sentence before.
come si vede che fece Roma. "As one sees that Rome did". The 1554 edition reads si uide, "as was seen" (NM-DISC-I24-D003).
E benché una Repubblica sia povera. "And albeit a republic be poor": benché, albeit (D31).
debbe di quel poco non astenersi. "It must not abstain from that little": debbe, must (D120). The 1554 edition prints debbe di di quel poco astenersi, without non, [sic], which says the opposite (NM-DISC-I24-D001).
per ricompensa di bene, ancora che grande. "In recompense of good, even though great": ancora che, even though (glossary). grande most naturally attaches to bene: the good done may be great and the gift small, as .04 then shows. Both the 1824 and the 1554 editions print grande, and both cold readers read it so; the English, like the Italian, leaves the attachment to the reader. The 1554 reads ricompenso, the masculine form of the noun; the reading was put to David under D203(b) and ricompensa stands (D248; NM-DISC-I24-D002).
onorevole e grandissimo. "Honourable and very great": the elative answers "very great" of Horatius' merits (.01).
Orazio Cocle. Horatius Cocles held the bridge over the Tiber against Porsena's army until the Romans cut it behind him (Livy 2.10). Not the Horatius of .01.
Muzio Scevola. Gaius Mucius Scaevola, who entered Porsena's camp to kill him, killed his secretary instead, and held his right hand in the fire before the king (Livy 2.12-13). avendo errato, "having erred": he mistook the man.
Porsena Re delli Toscani. "Porsena, king of the Tuscans": Lars Porsena of Clusium, king of the Etruscans; "Tuscans" for Machiavelli's Toscani, as he names them.
tantoché si tagliasse. "Until it should be cut": tantoché, so long that; the subjunctive keeps the prospect.
due stajora di terra. "Two staiora of land": the staioro is a Tuscan measure of land, the area sown with a staio of seed. Livy gives Cocles as much land as he could plough round in a day, and Scaevola land across the Tiber (2.10, 2.13); Livy gives no measure; the two staiora each are Machiavelli's.
fu donato dal Pubblico. "Were donated by the public": donare, the verb of dono, "gift" (.03), kept apart from dato, "given", of Manlius' meal; Pubblico, the commonwealth. Guicciardini's dal publico is the same word.
Manlio Capitolino. Marcus Manlius Capitolinus, who saved the Capitol from the Gauls (390 BC on the traditional reckoning), roused by the geese; the besieged gave him each a half-pound of meal and a little wine (Livy 5.47). He was later condemned for aiming at kingship and thrown from the Tarpeian rock (Livy 6.20). Machiavelli told his calumnies in I.8. The 1554 edition prints Mallio (NM-DISC-I24-D005).
che vi erano a campo. "Who were encamped there": besieging the Capitol.
secondo la fortuna che allora correva in Roma. "According to the fortune that then ran in Rome": in the straits of the siege, a measure of meal was much. Correre, run: the simple verb of the currere family (D01).
e di qualità che mosso poi Manlio. "And of such quality that, Manlius being moved later": the consecutive che opens a period that changes subject; Machiavelli's point is that the reward did not buy him exemption.
senza rispetto alcuno de' suoi meriti. "Without any respect to his merits": rispetto with the glossary's "respect to"; the rule's senza avere riguardo alcuno (.02), "without having any regard", is executed in the same shape, two words as in the Italian.
gittato precipite. "Thrown headlong": precipite, a Latinism.
ch'egli prima con tanta sua gloria aveva salvato. "Which he before, with so much glory of his own, had saved": the chapter ends on the Capitol, saved and then the place of his death, the merit and the penalty in one place, not compensated. Livy makes the same observation of the place (6.20.12); Machiavelli's da quello Campidoglio compresses the Tarpeian rock into the Capitol.
Le repubbliche bene ordinate constituiscono premii e pene ai loro cittadini, né compensano mai l'uno con l'altro
Well-ordered republics constitute rewards and penalties for their citizens, nor do they ever compensate the one with the other Canestrini's setting of the chapter title, in lower case and without a stop, with premii and ai for the 1824's premj and a'. It is heading apparatus, not Guicciardini's (D32).
Argument. The rule granted, the case argued. Guicciardini sets two hedged accounts of the absolution side by side. First, "one can say perhaps", Horatius was absolved not so much for his merits as because the killing of a sister who complained of what had saved the fatherland should not seem an error; so understood, the trial is no marvel, since a homicide needed absolution, and that from the public, not from private men. Then, "nonetheless the truth seems to be", the killing was a crime, because if she had done wrong her punishment pertained to the magistrates, and it was the memory of his merits that caused the absolution, above all since she seemed to have given him some cause by troubling his victory with her complaints. On this second account he puts the case, under in tal caso: if the homicide was not premeditated but done in anger provoked and very just, by a young man irritated in the rejoicing over so fine a victory, offending no others than the father and "themselves" (most likely the house of the Horatii; the Italian does not say), and the merits were so great and so fresh, then in such a case the Roman people would have been more reprehensible to condemn him than it was to absolve him. He does not say the absolution was blameless: the killing stays a crime, and the comparison is of degree.
Note. Then the rule. It is not good to make a rule that ill can be compensated with good, which, as the Discourse says, would be pernicious. But where so many circumstances concur it is very fitting to depart from the rule, and to make an example, not for whoever would compensate merits with sins indiscriminately, but for whoever is to judge, of being able to compensate. The reply grants Machiavelli's principle, citing the Discourse for it, and claims for the judge, where so many circumstances concur as in Horatius' case, a discretion that the rule as Machiavelli states it does not allow.
Cross-reference. Machiavelli would blame the people "rather for having absolved him than for having wished to condemn him" Machiavelli .02. Guicciardini's sentence answers it with the same verbs, absolve and condemn, under in tal caso, and with reprensibile for Machiavelli's biasimerà. Machiavelli's rule is that no well-ordered republic "ever cancelled the demerits with the merits"; Guicciardini grants that a rule of compensation would be pernicious and argues only for departing from the rule where the circumstances concur. Machiavelli's fallo, Horatius' fault Machiavelli .01, becomes the sister's fallato, and only under a condition.
Cross-reference. The verb concorrere, concur, comes five times, of the sister's provocation, of the circumstances and of the causes. It is the verb in which Guicciardini withholds ready assent at FG I.12 (io non concorro facilmente, "I do not readily concur"); here it carries the cause, and the reply ends on the case of Horatius rather than on the rule.
History. Livy has Horatius' father declare that his daughter was justly killed, and plead for the son before the people (1.26); Guicciardini's "the father and themselves" may lean on that judgment of the family, though he does not cite it. The trial for perduellio before the duumvirs, and the appeal to the people, are Livy's; Guicciardini, like Machiavelli, speaks only of the public absolution.
Established from Canestrini 1857, Opere inedite vol. 1, pp. 1–65 (WIT-FG-CONS-1857-CANESTRINI) — the editio princeps, which governs. Collated against Palmarocchi 1933 (WIT-FG-CONS-1933-PALMAROCCHI): page images and the Wikisource transcription consulted as collation evidence, not reproduced (LICENSE §5).
a' magistrati punirla; e che la memoria → a' magistrati punirla, e che la memoria (FG-CONS.1.24.01). Pass A ⟨;|,⟩, pass B ⟨;|,⟩; the 1933 edition prints a comma. D110.
saria pernizioso; ma perché → saria pernizioso, ma perché (FG-CONS.1.24.01). Pass A ⟨;|,⟩, pass B ⟨;|,⟩; the 1933 edition prints a comma. D110.
non pensatamente, ma con [ir]a provocata e assai giusta. The 1857 witness reads non pensatamente, ma con via provocata e assai giusta. The 1933 witness reads non pesatamente, ma con ira provocata ed assai giusta. Both cold readers read via without doubt. As printed the phrase barely construes ("with a way provoked and fairly just"); the 1933 ira, anger, is what provocata and irritato in the same clause call for. Emended under D68 from the 1933 edition, as D126, D214 and D233 (D245).
fatto non pensatamente — 1857. The 1933 witness reads fatto non pesatamente. Both readers read pensatamente, "with forethought", without doubt; the 1933 pesatamente, "weighedly", comes to much the same. Not at a letter the scan breaks; kept as printed (D38).
con pianti e querele era andata turbandogli — 1857. The 1933 witness reads con pianti e querele era andato turbandogli. Both readers read andata without doubt, at a letter the scan breaks (a/o); escalated under D203(b). Canestrini's feminine agrees with lei, the sister, who had gone on troubling the victory; the 1933 andato is the invariable participle. Same sense; kept, D38 (D247).
il populo romano. The 1857 witness reads il popu[l/t]o romano (a damaged letter). The 1933 witness reads el popolo romano. The readers split on which form they preferred, each giving the other's as alternative: A poputo, B populo. Poputo is not a word; Canestrini prints populo throughout the Considerazioni. Read populo, a reading, not an emendation (D246).
fare regola di potere compensare. The 1857 witness reads fare regola di p[o/e]tere compensare (a damaged letter). The 1933 witness reads fare regola di potere compensare. The readers split on which form they preferred: A petere, B potere, each giving the other's as alternative. Petere is not Italian; the 1933 edition reads potere. A reading (D246).
Orthography, capitalization, word division and punctuation follow the governing witness throughout; no reading is hybridized between witnesses.
Si può dire forse. "One can say perhaps": the reply opens on a possibility, and the next period (Nondimeno la verità pare che sia) sets a seeming truth beside it. Neither is asserted.
non tanto per la considerazione de' meriti suoi, quanto perché non paressi errore. "Not so much for the consideration of his merits as because it should not seem an error": the subjunctive paressi gives the absolution a motive, that the killing of such a sister should not seem an error; a public absolution is what intendendola così makes "no marvel". Then (Nondimeno) he moves the cause back to the merits.
che si lamentava di quello che era causa della salute e libertà della patria. "Who was complaining of that which was the cause of the safety and liberty of the fatherland": the victory, or Horatius who won it; quello can be either. salute, safety, as NM I.8, I.11; patria, fatherland (glossary).
insultava al fratello. "Was insulting her brother": insultare a, in the older sense, to assail with words.
non è maraviglia fussi chiamato in giudicio. "It is no marvel that he was called into judgment": giudicio, judgment, as the glossary's giudicii.
fatta non da' privati, ma dal publico. "Made not by private men but by the public": publico as Machiavelli's Pubblico (Machiavelli .04).
fussi delitto. "Was a crime": delitto, a crime in law, set against Machiavelli's fallo, "fault" (Machiavelli .01).
se lei aveva fallato. "If she had faulted": fallare, the verb of Machiavelli's fallo, "fault"; the English keeps the root, where "erred" would collide with errore, "error", in the period before.
non spettava a' privati ma a' magistrati punirla. "It pertained not to private men but to the magistrates to punish her": spettare of a right or charge, pertain. D175's "look to" (FG I.9) is spettare of a ruler attending to an end, and does not fit a charge that belongs to someone (D251).
a' magistrati. "The magistrates": the men in office (D93).
concorrendo massime che. "There concurring above all [this], that": concorrere, concur (D01), here in its first sense, to run together, as at FG I.1 (D63). The verb comes four times in the unit and once in the past (concorsono): circumstances concur, and the reply's verb of agreement becomes its verb of cause. massime, above all (glossary).
glien'avessi dato qualche causa. "Had given him some cause of it": glien', gliene, him ... of it, the killing. Both readers doubted the l; the alternative is not a word.
era andata turbandogli. "She had gone on troubling for him": andare with the gerund, a continuing act. Both readers read andata without doubt, agreeing with lei; the 1933 edition reads andato. Put to David under D203(b) and kept (D247; FG-CONS-I24-D003).
sì bella vittoria. "So fine a victory", twice: Guicciardini repeats the phrase, and the English repeats it.
non pensatamente. "Not with forethought": not premeditated. The 1933 edition reads pesatamente, "weighedly", to much the same effect (FG-CONS-I24-D002).
ma con [ir]a provocata e assai giusta. "But in anger provoked and very just": Canestrini prints via, which both readers read without doubt and which barely construes ("with a way provoked"); the 1933 edition reads ira, anger, which provocata and irritato call for. Emended under D68 (D245; FG-CONS-I24-D001). assai of degree, "very" (D254); the glossary's "many" is assai of number.
irritato nella gratulazione. "Irritated in the gratulation": gratulazione, rejoicing over a success, kept as the older English cognate. irritato in the older, stronger sense, provoked to anger.
il padre e loro medesimi. "The father and themselves": most likely the Horatii themselves, the house of the killer and the killed; the Italian does not say. Livy has the father declare the daughter justly killed (1.26).
il populo romano. "The Roman people". The readers split on the letters (A poputo, B populo), each giving the other's form as alternative; ruled populo (D246; FG-CONS-I24-D004).
più reprensibile ... d'averlo condannato, che non fu d'averlo assoluto. "More reprehensible for having condemned him than it was for having absolved him": the reply takes up Machiavelli's sentence and turns it under a condition. Machiavelli's reader "will blame that people rather for having absolved him than for having wished to condemn him" (Machiavelli .02); Guicciardini, in tal caso, finds the people more reprehensible for having condemned him than for having absolved him. The verbs of the trial are the same (absolve, condemn); Machiavelli's voluto drops out, and his biasimare, blame, becomes reprensibile, of the Italian family of reprensione, reproof (D173), which the English cognate does not show. The comparative does not say the absolution was blameless.
Non perché sia bene fare regola di potere compensare il male col bene. "Not because it is good to make a rule of being able to compensate the ill with the good": male / bene, ill / good (glossary). The readers split on potere (A petere); ruled potere (D246; FG-CONS-I24-D005). compensare is the rubric's verb.
come dice il Discorso, saria pernizioso. "As the Discourse says, would be pernicious": Guicciardini grants the rule in Machiavelli's chapter, which he names il Discorso, as at FG I.23.
sia molto conveniente partirsi dalla regola. "It is very fitting to depart from the rule": conveniente, fitting, as convenire (D85). The subjunctive sia answers Non perché sia bene: the correlation, not a mark of commitment; English "is" in both.
fare esemplo non a chi vuole indistintamente compensare e' meriti co' peccati, ma a chi ha a giudicare, di poterlo compensare. "To make an example not for whoever wishes indiscriminately to compensate the merits with the sins, but for whoever is to judge, of being able to compensate it": the example is of a power to judge, not of a rule to compensate. indistintamente, "indiscriminately" (D255), kept apart from FG I.16 sanza distinzione, "without distinction"; avere a, be to (D61); peccati, sins, as FG I.16.
concorrendo tante cagioni quante concorsono. "There concurring so many causes as concurred": cagione, cause (glossary). The reply ends on the case, not the rule, with a stop.